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Joined: Thu April 04, 2013 6:27 am Posts: 17741 Location: Port Perry Lodge on voluptuous Lake Perry
Kevin Davis wrote:
epilogue wrote:
I really wanted to give Chris shit for being condescending but the fact is there are other songs that exist that I actually like BECAUSE they're being performed by Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder. LRoM is a great example. I like that song because of Ed's performance.
I feel like this kind of thing is, like, 95% of being a music fan. The "YEAH, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE THIS JUST AS MUCH IF IT WAS BY SOME UNKNOWN SONGWRITER" experiment I don't think rightly leads to the conclusion that people think it does, i.e. usually the implication that an answer of "no" somehow betrays a collapse of critical faculties, or a revelation that the thing being discussed is inherently less valuable than the how the listener is responding to it. Does any song ever stand up "on its own merits?" Can anyone legitimately say that their favorite song would be equally compelling as a piece of sheet music as it would as a recording or performance? What the performer brings to the work is everything. Sometimes what they bring is technical skill, emotion, charisma, etc., and sometimes in addition to that they bring context, sentiment, and the baggage of your connection to the rest of their work, good or bad.
I think you got it wrong there, KD. A great piece of music is great on paper too. There can be a great performance of a bad song and vice versa.
_________________ 3rd place, RM Power Rankings: Week Ending March 24, 2024
I really wanted to give Chris shit for being condescending but the fact is there are other songs that exist that I actually like BECAUSE they're being performed by Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder. LRoM is a great example. I like that song because of Ed's performance.
I feel like this kind of thing is, like, 95% of being a music fan. The "YEAH, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE THIS JUST AS MUCH IF IT WAS BY SOME UNKNOWN SONGWRITER" experiment I don't think rightly leads to the conclusion that people think it does, i.e. usually the implication that an answer of "no" somehow betrays a collapse of critical faculties, or a revelation that the thing being discussed is inherently less valuable than the how the listener is responding to it. Does any song ever stand up "on its own merits?" Can anyone legitimately say that their favorite song would be equally compelling as a piece of sheet music as it would as a recording or performance? What the performer brings to the work is everything. Sometimes what they bring is technical skill, emotion, charisma, etc., and sometimes in addition to that they bring context, sentiment, and the baggage of your connection to the rest of their work, good or bad.
Totally. Which is why I wanted to give Chris shit.
I really wanted to give Chris shit for being condescending but the fact is there are other songs that exist that I actually like BECAUSE they're being performed by Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder. LRoM is a great example. I like that song because of Ed's performance.
I feel like this kind of thing is, like, 95% of being a music fan. The "YEAH, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE THIS JUST AS MUCH IF IT WAS BY SOME UNKNOWN SONGWRITER" experiment I don't think rightly leads to the conclusion that people think it does, i.e. usually the implication that an answer of "no" somehow betrays a collapse of critical faculties, or a revelation that the thing being discussed is inherently less valuable than the how the listener is responding to it. Does any song ever stand up "on its own merits?" Can anyone legitimately say that their favorite song would be equally compelling as a piece of sheet music as it would as a recording or performance? What the performer brings to the work is everything. Sometimes what they bring is technical skill, emotion, charisma, etc., and sometimes in addition to that they bring context, sentiment, and the baggage of your connection to the rest of their work, good or bad.
I think you got it wrong there, KD. A great piece of music is great on paper too. There can be a great performance of a bad song and vice versa.
What are some of your favorite pieces of music that you are only familiar with as pieces of sheet music?
I really wanted to give Chris shit for being condescending but the fact is there are other songs that exist that I actually like BECAUSE they're being performed by Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder. LRoM is a great example. I like that song because of Ed's performance.
I feel like this kind of thing is, like, 95% of being a music fan. The "YEAH, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE THIS JUST AS MUCH IF IT WAS BY SOME UNKNOWN SONGWRITER" experiment I don't think rightly leads to the conclusion that people think it does, i.e. usually the implication that an answer of "no" somehow betrays a collapse of critical faculties, or a revelation that the thing being discussed is inherently less valuable than the how the listener is responding to it. Does any song ever stand up "on its own merits?" Can anyone legitimately say that their favorite song would be equally compelling as a piece of sheet music as it would as a recording or performance? What the performer brings to the work is everything. Sometimes what they bring is technical skill, emotion, charisma, etc., and sometimes in addition to that they bring context, sentiment, and the baggage of your connection to the rest of their work, good or bad.
I think you got it wrong there, KD. A great piece of music is great on paper too. There can be a great performance of a bad song and vice versa.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:35 pm Posts: 32245 Location: Buenos Aires
Kevin Davis wrote:
What the performer brings to the work is everything.
I think what people are getting at when they make the "would you still like this etc." argument is precisely that no, it's not everything. But also, it's not "what the performer brings to the work" that is in question, but what your personal relationship / emotional investment with the performer does.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:35 pm Posts: 32245 Location: Buenos Aires
McParadigm wrote:
I know plat's cleared this up, and it's over, but I do think you built your argument on a wrong assumption.
The line of thinking that births posts like his isn't that subjective factors should never influence your opinion of the product. It's that the influence of those subjective factors should not be unlimited.
If my appreciation of the band becomes such that it ultimately supersedes all other determiners of my enjoyment of the music, then in fact I'm not appreciating music at all. I'm appreciating an idea, or a familiarity, or perhaps a cult of personality.
When people talk about scenarios like this one, where they believe a band's fanbase has become too defensive, or forgiving, or overly determined to like anything that band releases, they're certainly not saying "that singer's voice or that band's approach shouldn't influence your enjoyment of the music." They're asking a question: "is that really all that matters to you?"
It can be, under circumstances, a reasonable question.
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 39538
epilogue wrote:
stip wrote:
epilogue wrote:
VinylGuy wrote:
Strat wrote:
I was going to begin posting about why I like this song and open up about a recent relationship i got out of and how i relate to this song and the lyrics and try to defend why i like the song and why simple song writing is okay and then i realized whatever RM sucks and i dont care if people dont like it and i dont care if i like it.
pearl jam
yeah, i really like the lyrics in that sense. Also, i appreciate how simple they are, i think that made them stronger.
It's also, for me anyway, not so much about the lyrics but how the delivery. How the lyrics ride the melody and Ed's phrasing. And I think in that way the words are lovely -- simple, as you say, and pleasant to my ear.
I like how he sings it, and I like the flourishes. Part of the problem (for me) is that i am actually not that interested in the music, which means the simple repetition has to carry more weight than it should
One of the best qualities of the song, though, is its weightlessness. Nothing needs to lift more than its already lifting. I love that. I'm not sure I remember Ed every doing something like that before.
Yup, I get it. That is certainly part of the appeal - it's just not fully working for me
I was going to begin posting about why I like this song and open up about a recent relationship i got out of and how i relate to this song and the lyrics and try to defend why i like the song and why simple song writing is okay and then i realized whatever RM sucks and i dont care if people dont like it and i dont care if i like it.
pearl jam
I like that you like it. I like it too.
In the whole Tom Petty vibe, these lyrics feel appropriate.
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